superba wrote:

Canada has a single payer plan, and, therefore, the cost of medicine is lower by law.

Not really, our law does not extend into the USA and we pay what we have to pay. I think it's the bulk buying that reduces our prices.

superba wrote:

When the medical providers went to the insurance companies to get approval for higher rates for treatment, doctors, medicine, the insurance companies eagerly said yes. We'll just raise the rates, make a little more profit on the increment, and everybody will be happy. Except for the people that can't pay for insurance because it costs too much. That, folks, is how medicine in the US along with other medical costs have spiralled out of reason.

Call it "Malpractice Insurance' and ambulance chasers. Don't forget, you have to pay for all the knife and gunshot victims too in your state hospitals. IIRC, a hospital in the US cannot refuse a critically ill person because of their lack of insurance and therefore you have to pay $5.00 for a cotton swab.

superba wrote:

Back to the original question. Now that medical importation has gotten so much publicity, I would not buy from Canada, or anywhere outside the US, unless I was forced to.

By "forced", you mean broke? Like you can't afford your own country's prices? LOL, not buy from Canada because of our shoddy drug regulations? We have basically the same standards, why you would say that is weird.

superba wrote:

Many, many people who've been insured under such plans complain about the level of care they get. I don't have extensive experience with it, but I have had the discussion with several doctors who've practiced on both sides of the border, and they're all critical of the single payer plan. Wonder why?

Hey, you don't see me complaining. My mum has had a quadruple bypass, all her meds paid for, and is now receiving monthly blood transfusions, all paid for by our taxes. You will always hear the complaints, but what about listening to the satisfied customer for once.

As soon as I saw John's first post, I wanted so badly to put up the first reply. I have watched as 50 replies have gone by and resisted the urge to post. I was asked by some people, who know that I have been involved with the pharmaceutical industry for 4 years, why I don't post my thoughts. I just want to explain -- it would be a conflict of interest and a violation of confidentiality agreements and NDA's that I have signed.

I have been involved in a number of research studies for the NIH at one of the country's main research institutions, including one of the largest studies ever undertaken by the government. I recently was chosen to testify before pharmaceutical company panels on their policies. The team I work with has discussed my work with the lead NIH research team at Harvard and I help run a website that deals with these issues.

Pharmaceutical companies send teams of professionals to our institution and I come in and speak to them for an hour or so and answer questions about their policies. All the information is confidential. I wish I could say more but I just wanted you to know why I am staying out of this. Thanks.

IS there anything you DON'T do larry?

I can not believe that this has lsipped under the radar... I meant to post this before... but forgot..

Why are american made drugs cheaper in Cananda then here? Trade Agreements might have something to do with it.

we often sell stuff to other countries very cheap and in return buy stuff from them very cheap. If companies lose money for doing it... our tax dollars will go to work

We pay farmers to lower prices... We pay farmers NOT to sell their stocks... its all a big conundrum of poli-economics.

yuck

Neuromancer wrote:

IS there anything you DON'T do larry?

Thanks, but I really only do 2 things since 2001: this and that (meaning PROneT and the health research/website etc) .

Kamapua'a wrote:

Personally I still think it's somewhat ridiculous to say Canada's drugs aren't just as good as our own. If any of you can prove otherwise, I'm all ears. But just like we have shady drug companies here in the US... I'm sure they exist there too, but by far and large, the majority I'm also sure are legit and run a very good business. Quite frankly, if I was foreign, this thread at times would insult my countries integrity or trustworthiness. America might be great, but we didn't get here alone... friends in the world are a good thing... except apparently on health care (according to some of you).

Well, no, not really, just sort of.

Every few months I buy Advantage 18, to prevent fleas on my cats. It's a drug that's in between because the company, Bayer, wants it to be prescription only, but it actually can be sold sort of over the counter.

A few months ago I knowlingly bought a few months supply from Australia after being assured that it was the same as the product sold in the US. Turns out that there are counterfeit drugs out there, and what I got from Australia may have been. Not a lot of harm done since it's winter and my cats are indoors all the time.

The past few days I've been looking for some more Advantage 18, and, without exception the lowest prices are either in Canada or Australia. I talked to one of the Canadian suppliers, and she said that she would forward my order to Australia for fulfillment.

I've decided not to buy Advantage 18 that's not officially EPA approved, meaning that it's supposed to originate in the US. Of course, that's not conclusive proof, but it's a start.

In my mind I can easily extrapolate this situation for drugs for me or some other human. The drug counterfeiters have no conscience when it comes to what happens to their products.

Therefore, I reluctantly recommend that anyone stick to sourcing drugs in the US. I'd be the first to buy if I could be assured that the drugs are genuine, but I don't have the resources to prove that every time.

BTW, I've lived outside the US for years at a time, and, IMO, citizens of foreign countries will not take offense at this thread, for they are aware that crooks exist everywhere. Far too many everywhere. Crooks are crooks not matter where they reside.

Oh I agree there are plenty of crooks... which is why doing your HW and making sure you are dealing with a reputable dealer is important in my mind.

There are plenty of crooks in the US as well, so sell drugs on the street. Seems like I saw a L&O episode on that, where someone died as a result.

augie wrote:

superba wrote: Canada has a single payer plan, and, therefore, the cost of medicine is lower by law. Not really, our law does not extend into the USA and we pay what we have to pay. I think it's the bulk buying that reduces our prices. superba wrote: When the medical providers went to the insurance companies to get approval for higher rates for treatment, doctors, medicine, the insurance companies eagerly said yes. We'll just raise the rates, make a little more profit on the increment, and everybody will be happy. Except for the people that can't pay for insurance because it costs too much. That, folks, is how medicine in the US along with other medical costs have spiralled out of reason. Call it "Malpractice Insurance' and ambulance chasers. Don't forget, you have to pay for all the knife and gunshot victims too in your state hospitals. IIRC, a hospital in the US cannot refuse a critically ill person because of their lack of insurance and therefore you have to pay $5.00 for a cotton swab. superba wrote: Back to the original question. Now that medical importation has gotten so much publicity, I would not buy from Canada, or anywhere outside the US, unless I was forced to. By "forced", you mean broke? Like you can't afford your own country's prices? LOL, not buy from Canada because of our shoddy drug regulations? We have basically the same standards, why you would say that is weird. superba wrote: Many, many people who've been insured under such plans complain about the level of care they get. I don't have extensive experience with it, but I have had the discussion with several doctors who've practiced on both sides of the border, and they're all critical of the single payer plan. Wonder why? Hey, you don't see me complaining. My mum has had a quadruple bypass, all her meds paid for, and is now receiving monthly blood transfusions, all paid for by our taxes. You will always hear the complaints, but what about listening to the satisfied customer for once.

Doh, I don't recall suggesting that Canadian law extends across the US border. Perhaps for the clarification of some I should have added "in Canada".

By "bulk buying", do you mean that Canada's Health Plan procures drugs in bulk directly from US drug companies? There is no way to justify and/or rationalize the selling of US drugs to Canada at such a price thats allows US citizens to buy them back at a savings. None. Period. Fair Trade Agreement or not. The prices are high here for one reason, and one reason, only. The very worst reason, btw. BECAUSE THEY(THE DRUG COMPANIES) CAN GET AWAY WITH IT!

Malpractive Insurance and ambulance chasers are components of cost; however, there are laws in the works all over the US that limit what ambulance chasers(and their clients) can extract from the medical community. The largest component is the unimpeded increase of cost of medical equipment, drugs, and practitioners. They will become asymptotically limited when a large enough segment of the population can no longer afford treatment and/or insurance.

"Forced to" in my context means as a last resort. Yes, it might mean that I would be broke, penniless.

You are the one that characterized Canada's drug practices as "shoddy", tsk, tsk. I would be the first to buy from Canada if I could do so legally with the same assurance of quality that I get in the US. Before you light your torch, I'm concerned about buying drugs across any international border because of the increased liklihood of getting counterfeit or substandard drugs. Further clarification for some: And, if I live to be angry about it, the complete and utter inability to seek recourse across an international border, including Canada.

AFA insurance is concerned. I feel that everyone should be covered, or no one covered(by insurance), by a single payer plan. That is not a popular view with the US medical community for obvious reasons.

And, in closing, I wish your mum a speedy recovery and good luck(and I won't clarify that).

Hi,

I just bought some Advantage 18 from a US source that happens to be in Fremont, where I live. It came the next day and had EPA approval on it, etc. If it were counterfeit, I would have recourse. I paid about 25% more than I'd have to pay from Canada/Australia, but there's a good feeling about doing the right thing.

If I have trepidation about buying a relatively harmless product for my cats that could be questionable, then you must imagine how anxious I would be about drugs for myself.

As loath as I am to admit it, and I hate overpaying for anything, the present situation protects the unsuspecting. Until there is a way to guarantee mail order drugs over the internet or not, I feel it is best to control them as they are.

I saw on TV where there are drug tours from US cities close to Canada where people are allowed to go into Canadian pharmacies and buy drugs, with a prescription, of course, if one is required. I would have no problem doing that, for the quality of the drugs is virtually assured in that way. Have those tours been discontinued?

FYI, I lived in Hong Kong where many drugs were available OTC that are prescription drugs in the US. I took griseofulvicin to clear up foot fungus which it did. However, I also took it far too long, for I discovered that it was beginning to damage my liver the next time I had a complete physical. Had to cease ALL alcoholic beverages for 2 months to let my liver recover.....

Disclaimer: Nothing in this is intended to criticize other countries' regulation of their drug industries, particularly UK, Canada, and Australia. I've been to places where I was afraid to eat and drink let alone take their drugs, but the UK, Canada, and Australia are not among them.

Well I can say with certainty the drugs from Canada are just as fine as the US ones. I've seen it now with my own eyes. Same brand name, same quality of packaging and everything.

That was enough proof for me.

Disclaimer: I hope this fits here. I take no responsibility for the contents; it could be a forgery and a fake. I checked a few of the percentages because they seemed too big, but the ones I checked were correct. It might be real....

Edited 4.12.05 to correct a percentage.. all are correct now....

Copied from a circulating email.

Prescription drugs

The following is incredible. Make sure to keep reading to the bottom where it discusses Costco, Sam's Club, etc. The women who wrote this email and signed below are Federal Budget Analysts in Washington, DC.

Did you ever wonder how much it costs a drug company for the active ingredient in prescription medications? Some people think it must cost a lot, since many drugs sell for more than $2.00 per tablet. We did a search of offshore chemical synthesizers that supply the active ingredients found in drugs approved by the FDA. As we have revealed in past issues of "Life Extension," a significant percentage of drugs sold in the United State contain active ingredients made in other countries. In our independent investigation of how much profit drug companies really make, we obtained the actual price of active ingredients used in some of the most popular drugs sold in America. The list below speaks for itself.

Celebrex 100 mg
Consumer price (100 tablets): $130.27
Cost of general active ingredients: $0.60
Percent markup: 21,712%

Claritin 10 mg
Consumer Price (100 tablets): $215.17
Cost of general active ingredients: $0.71
Percent markup: 30,306%

Keflex 250 mg
Consumer Price (100 tablets): $157.39
Cost of general active ingredients: $1.88
Percent markup: 8,372%

Lipitor 20 mg
Consumer Price (100 tablets): $272.37
Cost of general active ingredients: $5.80
Percent markup: 4,696%

Norvasec 10 mg
Consumer price (100 tablets): $188.29
Cost of general active ingredients: $0.14
Percent markup: 134,493%

Paxil 20 mg
Consumer price (100 tablets): $220.27
Cost of general active ingredients: $7.60
Percent markup: 2,898%

Prevacid 30 mg
Consumer price (100 tablets): $44.77
Cost of general active ingredients: $1.01
Percent markup: 4,433%

Prilosec 20 mg
Consumer price (100 tablets): $360.97
Cost of general active ingredients $0.52
Percent markup: 69,417%

Prozac 20 mg
Consumer price (100 tablets) : $247.47
Cost of general active ingredients: $0.11
Percent markup: 224,973%

Tenormin 50 mg
Consumer price (100 tablets): $104.47
Cost of general active ingredients: $0.13
Percent markup: 80,362%

Vasotec 10 mg
Consumer price (100 tablets): $10237
Cost of general active ingredients: $0.20
Percent markup: 51,185%

Xanax 1 mg
Consumer price (100 tablets) : $136.79
Cost of general active ingredients: $0.024
Percent markup: 569,958%

Zestril 20 mg
Consumer price (100 tablets) $89.89
Cost of general active ingredients $3.20
Percent markup: 2,809%

Zithromax 600 mg
Consumer price (100 tablets): $1,482.19
Cost of general active ingredients: $18.78
Percent markup: 7,892%

Zocor 40 mg
Consumer price (100 tablets): $350.27
Cost of general active ingredients: $8.63
Percent markup: 4,059%

Zoloft 50 mg
Consumer price: $206.87
Cost of general active ingredients: $1.75
Percent markup: 11,821%

Since the cost of prescription drugs is so outrageous, I thought everyone I knew should know about this. Please read the following and pass it on. It pays to shop around. This helps to solve the mystery as to why they can afford to put a Walgreen's on every corner.

On Monday night, Steve Wilson, an investigative reporter for Channel 7 News in Detroit, did a story on generic drug price gouging by pharmacies. He found in his investigation, that some of these generic drugs were marked up as much as 3,000% or more. Yes, that's not a typo ... three thousand percent!

So often, we blame the drug companies for the high cost of drugs, and usually rightfully so. But in this case, the fault clearly lies with the pharmacies themselves For example, if you had to buy a prescription drug, and bought the name brand, you might pay $100 for 100 pills. The pharmacist might tell you that if you get the generic equivalent, they would only cost $80, making you think you are "saving" $20. What the pharmacist is not telling you is that those 100 generic pills may have only cost him $10!

At the end of the report, one of the anchors asked Mr. Wilson whether or not there were any pharmacies that did not adhere to this practice, and he said that Costco, Sam's Club and other discount volume stores consistently charged little over their cost for the generic drugs. I went to the discount store's website, where you can look up any drug, and get its online price. It says that the in-store prices are consistent with the online prices. I was appalled. Just to give you one example from my own experience, I had to use the drug, Comparing, which helps prevent nausea in chemo patients. I used the generic equivalent, which cost $54.99 for 60 pills at CVS. I checked the price at Costco, and I could have bought 100 pills for $19.89. For 145 of my pain pills, I paid $72.57. I could have got 150 at another discount store for $28.08.

I would like to mention, that although these are a "membership" type store, you do NOT have to be a member to buy prescriptions there, as it is a federally regulated substance. You just tell them at the door that you wish to use the pharmacy, and they will let you in. I am asking each of you to please help me by copying this letter, and passing it into your own email, and send it to everyone you know with an email address.

Sharon L. Davis, Budget Analyst, US Department of Commerce Room 6839
Office Ph: 202-482-4458; Office Fax: 202-482-5480 Email Address: sdavis@docgov
Mary Palmer, Budget Analyst, Bureau of Economic Analysis Office of Budget & Finance;
Voice: (202) 606-9295

Flame them; not me