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Russians Push Past Separatist Area to Assault Central Georgia

By ANNE BARNARD
August 10, 2008





TBILISI, Georgia — Russia expanded its attacks on Georgia on Sunday, moving tanks and troops through the separatist enclave of South Ossetia and advancing toward the city of Gori in central Georgia, in its first direct assault on a Georgian city with ground forces after three days of heavy fighting, Georgian officials said.

The maneuver — along with aerial bombing of the Georgian capital, Tbilisi — suggested that Russia’s aims in the conflict had gone beyond securing the pro-Russian enclaves of South Ossetia and Abkhazia to weakening the armed forces of Georgia, a former Soviet republic and an ally of the United States whose Western leanings have long irritated the Kremlin.

Russia’s moves, which came after Georgia offered a cease-fire and pulled its troops out of South Ossetia, caused widespread international alarm and anger and set the stage for an intense diplomatic confrontation with the United States.

Two senior Western officials said that it was unclear whether Russia intended a full invasion of Georgia, but that its aims could go as far as destroying its armed forces or overthrowing Georgia’s pro-Western president, Mikheil Saakashvili.

“They seem to have gone beyond the logical stopping point,” one senior Western diplomat said, speaking anonymously under normal diplomatic protocol.

The escalation of fighting raised tensions between Russia and its former cold war foes to their highest level in decades. President Bush has promoted Georgia as a bastion of democracy, helped strengthen its military and urged that NATO admit the country to membership. Georgia serves as a major conduit for oil flowing from Russia and Central Asia to the West.

But Russia, emboldened by windfall profits from oil exports, is showing a resolve to reassert its dominance in a region it has always considered its “near abroad.”

The military action, which has involved air, naval and missile attacks, is the largest engagement by Russian forces outside its borders since the collapse of the Soviet Union.


More at: The New York Times

Ah.....its good to have the 'Old Russia' back.

Russia won't stop IMHO against weak Georgia until they have made their point towards the whole area ( I think down to Turkey ) that they won't stop if they're sure their oil flow is not in danger due to US friendly politic games. Georgia's president tried to play hard regarding the oil flow and some other agreements they had with Russia.

There's no doubt about it that this is all about Georgia and other former Soviet Union states now wanting to join NATO. Not such a bad thing in itself but together with the placement of US missile shields in such states, I'd say Russia is within their rights to oppose that by any means they can.

The Georgia situation is not as clear cut as appears on the surface, with the US long having provided covert and more recently open military and economic support. I mean really, just look at how the US behaved against Cuba with the "missile crisis"...they didn't exactly warm to the idea of having the USSR plant missiles so close to home did they!

Grav!ty wrote:

There's no doubt about it that this is all about Georgia and other former Soviet Union states now wanting to join NATO. Not such a bad thing in itself but together with the placement of US missile shields in such states, I'd say Russia is within their rights to oppose that by any means they can. The Georgia situation is not as clear cut as appears on the surface, with the US long having provided covert and more recently open military and economic support. I mean really, just look at how the US behaved against Cuba with the "missile crisis"...they didn't exactly warm to the idea of having the USSR plant missiles so close to home did they!

I assume that's where we got the idea from. But anyway, while I initially opposed the idea of a missile defense system viewing Russia as largely passive, events within the last two years (largely the last week lol) have changed my mind. Russia seems to be itching to get the "old gang" back together. NO! I don't think that Russia will go back to communism - too many can still remember how bad it was. However they will want to assert their influence and try to become a super power again.

I'm not saying I object to there being more than one super power but I think we all long for the day where we can just live in peace. I don't have the answers obviously.

All I can say is that Russia looks likely to capture Tbilisi and gobble up all of Georgia. I hope that doesn't happen because stupid things like this can snowball.

I laugh at the people who keep saying that the United States is bad. We went into Iraq with a UN mandate, controversial as it may be, it is still with approval. We didn't just march into Iraq and cause a regime change.

Contrast to what the Russians are doing. This is like saying that Alaska decides to secede from the US, the US sends troops in, then Russia sends troops to keep Alaska separate from the US, a territory that was bought from Russia.

I really really hope this doesn't spark into something big. Georgia is SO CLOSE to Iraq and Turkey.

IMO China and Russia will not return to communism. I think that in the future if there IS a world war it will be against democratic governments strangling each other for power. I don't think China will keep its totalitarian system for long.

Grav!ty wrote:

There's no doubt about it that this is all about Georgia and other former Soviet Union states now wanting to join NATO. Not such a bad thing in itself but together with the placement of US missile shields in such states, I'd say Russia is within their rights to oppose that by any means they can. The Georgia situation is not as clear cut as appears on the surface, with the US long having provided covert and more recently open military and economic support. I mean really, just look at how the US behaved against Cuba with the "missile crisis"...they didn't exactly warm to the idea of having the USSR plant missiles so close to home did they!

Also as a matter of fact Georgia gave Russia all the reasons to attack. They messed with Ossetia's people that are more than 80% Russians and Ossetia ( North and South ) have been independent for the past 20 years.

gries818 wrote:

I assume that's where we got the idea from. But anyway, while I initially opposed the idea of a missile defense system viewing Russia as largely passive, events within the last two years (largely the last week lol) have changed my mind. Russia seems to be itching to get the "old gang" back together. NO! I don't think that Russia will go back to communism - too many can still remember how bad it was. However they will want to assert their influence and try to become a super power again. I'm not saying I object to there being more than one super power but I think we all long for the day where we can just live in peace. I don't have the answers obviously. All I can say is that Russia looks likely to capture Tbilisi and gobble up all of Georgia. I hope that doesn't happen because stupid things like this can snowball.

As a matter of fact Russia left the US do what they want in Afghanistan and Iraq ( I don't think anyone still believes that there were WMD in Iraq ) but the Us wanted more and more. They messed with Iran while at the same time they were approaching China through India. Add to that that the US are coming closer to Russia with their influence or accommodation to Poland , Ukraine , Belarus and you have a very good reason for Russia's reaction.

Computerwiz2489 wrote:

I laugh at the people who keep saying that the United States is bad. We went into Iraq with a UN mandate, controversial as it may be, it is still with approval. We didn't just march into Iraq and cause a regime change. Contrast to what the Russians are doing. This is like saying that Alaska decides to secede from the US, the US sends troops in, then Russia sends troops to keep Alaska separate from the US, a territory that was bought from Russia. I really really hope this doesn't spark into something big. Georgia is SO CLOSE to Iraq and Turkey. IMO China and Russia will not return to communism. I think that in the future if there IS a world war it will be against democratic governments strangling each other for power. I don't think China will keep its totalitarian system for long.

No one says that the US is bad. They're protecting their interest. Bad for me , good for you that you're an American. In Iraq you did marched and caused a regime change and this was all for energy and more specific for oil.

The Russian's are protecting their interests too but also their population. Ossetia , north and south have been independent since almost 1990. Georgia decided to take these territories back. Well they should have thought twice.

I don't really care if Russia and China go back to communism. Why do you care about that ? In Ukraine they long the time they were under the Soviet Union umbrella as they knew they would have a job tomorrow , a house for their family and food to eat. They wouldn't fight for more as they don't now and they were perfectly happy with the situation.

Russians stay in Georgia and worry the West

Monday August 18, 2008
By James Kilner


TBILISI (Reuters) - Russian troops and tanks were still deployed in several areas of Georgia on Tuesday, apparently defying pressure from the West to withdraw quickly.

Armed Georgian policemen and Russian soldiers guarded separate checkpoints only a few hundred meters apart in the village of Igoeti in central Georgia, about 45 km (28 miles) from the Georgian capital, Tbilisi.

Russia's Defense Ministry has said the army's withdrawal from Georgia has started, but on Monday a Reuters correspondent who traveled to the central town of Gori saw little evidence of a pullout from the area.

The conflict began 10 days ago when Georgian forces tried earlier this month to recapture South Ossetia, which broke free from Tbilisi in a war during the 1990s. Russia launched an overwhelming counterattack to support the separatists.

The Russian attack -- its biggest military deployment outside its borders since the 1991 fall of the Soviet Union -- included air strikes on economic targets deep inside Georgia, forcing the Georgian army into retreat, and shocked the West.

The United States and France on Monday urged a speedy Russian withdrawal in line with a French-mediated ceasefire accord. This and other similar appeals have had no visible impact as Moscow has declined to set a pullout timetable.

A senior U.S. official said there were no signs yet that the Russian forces had begun to leave. Georgia said they were broadening their presence.

"I hope the world has woken up to what is going on. The Russians should get out of my country," Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili told reporters during a Tbilisi church service late on Monday. "The worst thing the world could do would be to compromise and show weakness."

NATO foreign ministers will meet in Brussels to discuss the crisis later on Tuesday.

A senior U.S. official said the United States would call on NATO members to consider suspending ministerial meetings with Moscow to press Russia to respect the peace deal on Georgia.

ROADBLOCKS SMASHED

On Monday a convoy of armored personnel carriers smashed through a Georgian police roadblock at a sidestreet leading off from the main road through Igoeti.

In the hills overlooking the road between Igoetia and Gori, Russian soldiers manned bunkers while camouflaged tanks and armored personnel carriers trained their cannon on vehicles passing below.

Georgia, a former Soviet state, is at the centre of a battle for influence between Russia and the West in the Caucasus, which hosts a pipeline pumping oil to Europe from Asia. It has angered Moscow by pushing to join NATO.


More at: Reuters

Hypocrite Bush: “Unacceptable in the 21st Century”

By Matthew Rothschild
August 12, 2008


ust back from mugging for the cameras with the bikini-clad U.S. Olympic volleyball team, Bush put his serious face on in Washington and denounced Russia’s incursion into Georgia.

Bush called it “unacceptable in the 21st century.”

He’s right, but who is he to talk?

Let’s see.

If invading a sovereign country that posed no threat to you is “unacceptable in the 21st century,” then Bush himself has acted in an unacceptable way, obviously, for invading Iraq.

And what about kidnapping people?

Or holding people in solitary confinement for years at a time, prior to any trial?

Or imprisoning people for six years without ever letting them see a judge?

What about parading them around naked?

Or about putting hoods over their heads?

Or making them hang by their arms?

Or depriving them of sleep for days at a time?

Or holding them in freezing or roasting temperatures?

Or blasting music at them at ear-splitting volume?

Or putting them in cramped little boxes?

Or sexually humiliating them?

Or intimidating them with dogs?

Or waterboarding them?

These are all actions that ought to be “unacceptable in the 21st century,” but Bush himself is responsible for them.

He’s no one to throw stones.


Source: The Progressive

This is the main issue I have with George Bush. More than half the world assumes that Americans think just like him, or follow his mindset. Now granted there's that 30 or so percent that still believes in his ability to walk on water, figuratively, but the rest of us are more than ready for him to go.

This November I think either way we're taking a step forward. I value McCain for his experience, but I also worry he's a cold war man and wouldn't hesitate to take us back to that time. That's a key reason I don't like the guy, he's itching to push buttons like Bush was it seems. I know someone's gotta stand up to the "bad guys" of the world, but I think we need to do two things. 1.) We need to stop being the bad guy in the long run. Our history is full of not-so-good-guy moments, and we're now paying the price for it. Lots of American's actually think we're completely innocent. Um... no. 2.) We seriously need to keep the other world powers involved in these kinds of situations. It's in everyone's best interest to NOT let us get back to the cold war era. And it's certainly in the world's best interest to not let another World War start.

On another note, my opinion of China (the people) has changed some lately. I still think the government leaves a lot to be desired, but the people of China remind me very much of Americans in their quest for greatness.